Tuesday, August 16, 2005

Southern Cross

I posted a few days ago on the band Crosby Stills & Nash. About the same time, I found out that David Crosby is an avid sailor and bought a 60-foot wooden schooner named The Mayan a couple of years before Crosby Stills & Nash began, and still sails it today. As a result, a lot of CSN and sometimes Y songs were sailing related. Southern Cross not only mentions sailing, but is nearly about sailing, perhaps more so than any other pop song. Unfortunately the recording is from the 80's and the style is very 80's. Oh well. Not that that's the worst thing in the world, but I wish it was more like their older stuff. It's still a pretty good song. You can listen to a quick snippet of it here if you forget what it sounds like. It plays on the radio sometimes. So I thought it would be fun to post the lyrics and define the boating terms either alongside the term, or with a link:

Got out of town on a boat (Boat: A large hole in the water into which you throw money)
Goin' to Southern islands. (I need help with this one... anyone know which Islands this would be referring to?)
Sailing a reach (Reaching is when the sail is to one side, with the wind coming from the other side. This is one of 3 positions (points) of sailing. The others are sailing against the wind ("beating to windward" or "close hauled") and with the wind (Running)).
Before a followin' sea. (Following sea basically means a sea that is perfect for sailing: Plenty of wind, but the swells are small enough as not to swamp you.)
She was makin' for the trades (The tradewinds are so called, of course, because commercial ocean sailing vessels used to take advantage of them to make the best time to their destination)
On the outside, (I haven't been able to figure out what "on the outside" means. Anyone know?)
And the downhill run (as mentioned above, this is one of the three points of sail. A run is when sailing with the wind. I assume he means that when he gets to the trade winds, he'll sail with them to his destination. Sailors sometimes refer to sailing with the wind as sailing "downhill" and against the wind as "uphill". Therefore, saying "downhill run" is technically redundant, but its often said that way in sailing "slang")
To Papeete.
Off the wind on this heading
Lie the Marquesas.
We got eighty feet of the waterline. (Waterline is the length of the hull where it touches the surface of the water. The overall length of the boat (LOA) is usually longer than the length of the waterline (LOW). A classic wooden vessel with 80 feet of waterline could easily be 100 feet overall, with the overhang of the bowsprit in front, and the main boom behind).
Nicely making way. (Way = movement of a vessel through the water, or potential movement. Giving yourself leeway means you've left room on the downwind side, in case a maneuver is required. If the vessel is pointed high (beating to windward) then maneuvering to the lee side may be the only option in a tight space, since sailboats can only point so high).
In a noisy bar in Avalon
I tried to call you.
But on a midnight watch I realized
Why twice you ran away.

Chorus
Think about how many times
I have fallen
Spirits are using me
larger voices callin'.
What heaven brought you and me
Cannot be forgotten.
I have been around the world,
Lookin' for that woman/girl,
Who knows love can endure.
And you know it will.
And you know it will.

When you see the Southern Cross
For the first time
You understand now
Why you came this way
'Cause the truth you might be runnin' from
Is so small.
But it's as big as the promise
The promise of a comin' day.
So I'm sailing for tomorrow
My dreams are a dyin'.
And my love is an anchor tied to you
Tied with a silver chain.
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name.

Chorus
Think about how many times
I have fallen
Spirits are using me
larger voices callin'.
What heaven brought you and me
Cannot be forgotten.
I have been around the world,
Lookin' for that woman/girl,
Who knows love can endure.
And you know it will.
And you know it will.

So we cheated and we lied
And we tested
And we never failed to fail
It was the easiest thing to do.
You will survive being bested.
Somebody fine
Will come along
Make me forget about loving you.
At the Southern Cross.

45 Comments:

Blogger AndyOfVermont said...

Indeed! Now I just wish it wasn't an 80's song, even if it is more tastefully done than many 80's songs. I've heard it rumored that there is an earlier version of it from "CSN and sometimes Y's" earlier days (this one from the greatest hits CD was recorded during their "reunion" years). I'll be checking into that soon.

September 29, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

IMHO, I believe the Avalon he is singing about is the city/port of Avalon on Catalina Island. Doesn't make sense that he would stop off in England on his way to Tahiti.

September 06, 2008  
Blogger AndyOfVermont said...

Aha!!! Thank you!

September 06, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Could the phrase "on the outside" mean in the ocean, as opposed to in an inland waterway?
I think I saw something about someone sailing from Maine to Florida several times, both on the ouside and using the inland waterway.

February 17, 2009  
Blogger AndyOfVermont said...

You might be onto something... except I don't think you could "make for the trades" except on the ocean, right? But I wonder if you can be "inside" or "outside" of the trades somehow.

February 17, 2009  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe the southern islands he is referring to are those in the South Pacific, since The Marquesas, Papeete Tahiti, and Avalon, New Zealand would all utilize navigation by the constellation Southern Cross. Also if the name of his ship is MUSIC, it should be capitalized or italicized.

June 01, 2009  
Blogger Unknown said...

the "outside" refers to being leeward (pronounced lou ard) or downwind.

March 23, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My best guess is that "Heading for the trades on the outside" means that he's heading towards the trade winds upwind of his destination. Thus, when he hit the tradwinds, he would be positioned to turn starboard and run straight downwind to Papeete.

August 05, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wrong on the "following sea." A following sea is just that: wind and waves are following you, and it can be quite nasty, causing the vessel to slew around, or, in an extreme situation get "pooped" (have the sea come aboard from the stern), or even "pitchpole" -- burying the bow in the trough of wave and having the following sea flip the vessel end over end.

September 18, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Following Seas": Defined by Bowditch's American Practical Navigator as "A sea in which the waves move in the general direction of the heading." It further defines "Tide" as "the periodic rise and fall of the water resulting from gravitational interactions between the sun, moon, and earth. . . . the accompanying horizontal movement of the water is part of the same phenomenon." In simple terms: the movement of the water, the waves, and the surface, correspond with the movement of the tide.

March 25, 2014  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

P.S. This song is about Judy Collins, as are just about any of his songs in which Stephen Stills mentions a woman such as Bluebird, Rock and Roll Woman, Helplessly Hoping, or, of course, Suite: Judy Blue Eyes.

March 25, 2014  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Negatory.

Origin (per wikipedia): Southern Cross is based on the song "Seven League Boots" by Rick and Michael Curtis. Stills explained, "The Curtis Brothers brought a wonderful song called 'Seven League Boots,' but it drifted around too much. I rewrote a new set of words and added a different chorus, a story about a long boat trip I took after my divorce (his first wife, singer-songwriter Véronique Sanson). It's about using the power of the universe to heal your wounds. Once again, I was given somebody's gem and cut and polished it."

April 18, 2014  
Blogger Rebel Charm said...

"She" is in reference to a woman, not just the boat.

January 23, 2015  
Blogger Phil said...

The "Southern Islands" probably refers to the Islands of the South Pacific, which lines up with the references to Papeete, Tahiti and the Marquesas, both in French Polynesia.

Avalon, though? Catalina Island is pretty far from Polynesia.

February 21, 2015  
Blogger Unknown said...

"On the outside" refers to being outside of the doldrums, an area of poor sailing winds which lies between the bands of trade winds. One must sail across this area on occasion (depending upon where one starts out from of course) to get TO the bands of trade winds. So the song refers to the intention to grab the downwind advantage (downhill run) once the ship gets past the doldrums.

June 11, 2015  
Blogger Unknown said...

Another take on being "on the outside" has to do with where a sailor catches the wind. If the draught of the wind is across the face of the sail, pulling the boat along like an airplane wing does, then the sail is "inside" the wind. If the wind is behind the sail, shoving the boat forward, then the sail is "on the outside".

The closest Avalon is in Australia, on the eastern side, toward Tahiti. Logically this is the Avalon in question, and the "southern islands" referred to (as Phillip notes above) are all those tiny little islands east and north of Aussie-land, which includes the Marquesas, with Papeete being along the way.

June 11, 2015  
Blogger Dan said...

My vote is for Avalon Beach, New South Wales, Australia. The Avalon options in New Zealand are not port town. There is a big sailing and harbor at Avalon Beach, Australia.

September 03, 2015  
Blogger Unknown said...

Well his Journey may have started in Long Beach California. The stop in Avalon might make sense in that case. Last ditch effort to contact her and all. Reach, following sea and on the outside, leads me to believe he's sailing south for Argentina. The Pacific side of South America is leeward of the prevailing trades all the way down to Argentina. So he is sailing souh toward Argentina fairly close to the coast, the whole way down leeward of the prevailing trades. Slow going since he is prolly sailing with sails close hauled and more dangerous because there is also a following sea.
He is making to sail around the Horn the easier way hoping to catch the Westerly trade winds and sail downhill with the wind all the way to Tahiti. A good route since you avoid the horse latitudes and the possibility of becalmed seas. A great way to go if you want absolute solitude for self reflection and what have you. A midnight watch would be set to keep an eye out for icebergs.The Marquesas archipelago would be off the wind on this heading.

February 11, 2016  
Blogger Unknown said...

Okay, my interpretation of the meaning behind the lyrics.

He sets sail out of a port in California. Prolly San Francisco, or my favorite, Long Beach. He makes a quick stop in Avalon harbour on Santa Catalina island off of the coast very near Long Beach California. He makes a last ditch effort to call her before he follows through with his plan which will put hI'm out of touch with her for many months.
When you "reach" for the wind you are nor sailing with the wind but adjusting your sails to get the best out of what wind there is. A "broad reach" is pretty good and almost with the wind. The boat will be keeled over quite aways and it's a fun and bumpy ride. But in this case I think he is sailing very close to into the wind which is setting the sails "close haul reach". The going is very slow and difficult. That symbolizes how difficult it is to leave her behind. Add to that a "following sea". A "following sea" is a condition that happens when the direction of current and the swell is the same as your heading. This is very common. It becomes dangerous in the rare circumstance when the sea is flowing against the wind. It can cause you to capsize easily. When your sailing " close haul reach" and you have a "following sea" you run the chance of having your bow going under a swell. This can literally break the backbone of the boat or even cause the boat to flip stern over bow. ( ass over head as we used to say, painful as hell amazes you how flexible you can be ).
What I think this means is that 1. Memories of her are very hard to escape and 2. his past is catching up with him through self reflection in the solitude of sailing.
"Making for the trades on the outside" tells me he is sailing for Argentina and a trip the easier, but still very rough, way around the horn. Then catching the westerly trade winds and fast and smooth sailing toward Tahiti. In this case "outside" means he is sailing on the leeward ( protected, sheltered,from the wind ) side of South America. Another reason for the slow conditions he is experiencing. I think this symbolizes his position as a celebrity. A position that kept him sheltered and unaware just how badly his marrige was going until it collapsed suddenly around him. "The midnight watch" symbolizes sleepless nights spent in introspective thought.
Once he gets around the horn, symbolizing his beginning to accept the idea of losing her, he catches the westerly trade winds. He is no longer so devastated as to be crippled by his loss. He is moving on with life even if he still has a long ways to go to understanding what happened between them. The deeper reasons and causes, for his behavior etc.
"Off wind of this heading lie the Marquesas" symbolizes the temptation to leave his heading and go back to his old familiar ways of thinking and living. From the heading he is on the Marquesas are in a direction of a much more inhabited area with lots of ports and distractions. He realizes he has to stay focused and on course if he is to grow and avoid repeating his mistakes. The southern cross constellation symbolizes his finally understanding fully what happened and why. This constellation is used in navigation to find north in the southern hemisphere. He had found his true heading and can now stay on it, but also find it again if he should fall. The rest of the song is pretty self explanatory, well really the whole song is, just the symbology may use some interpretation. Oh and Papeete bay is just the representation of the goal. The ultimate destination. Interestingly this location was used in the documentary "Endless Summer". It was the location of the surfing swell they called "ins and outs" you could catch the wave going toward the beach or going away from the beach. Thinking about it, since I am absolutely sure he saw the movie, that has some symbolic meaning too when you think about it.

February 11, 2016  
Anonymous Bob Snead said...

Anonymous said in 2014 that Rock and Roll Woman was a song about Judy Collins. No. Sure, Suite Judy Blue Eyes is about Judy, but Rock and Roll Woman is about rock and roll personified as a woman -- an amazing, brilliant composition of lyrics and instruments. If any more proof is needed, Judy C did not sing rock & roll, but rather folk music, some of the very best of its time, like Both Sides Now (written by Joni Mitchell) and Send in the Clowns (written by Stephen Sondheim). I see Rock and Roll Woman as the best of Buffalo Springfiled and one of the greatest songs in all of rock and roll.

April 19, 2017  
Blogger shawn said...

Catilina Island is off the Coast of California, I'm not aware of one in England. The Catilina Islands" Which so many confuse those with the Marquesas" located at 9°00S 139°30W, How They confuse them...? is Beyond me, He speaks of PaPeete and Avalonn both Located where..? Tahiti. The Trade winds are the Prevailing pattern of Easterly surface Winds found in the Tropics. The trade winds have bn used for Centuries and have established Trade Routes for the world. Also the song is about The Southern Cross, which can be only be seen from the Southern Hemisphere. A few country's have The Southern Cross on their Flags, Australian, New Zealand... etc.

July 14, 2017  
Blogger Food Masters said...

"Downhill Run" refers to a due South (180 degree) heading on the compass

July 31, 2017  
Blogger campana1962 said...

You're correct that the trade winds were, and still are [in motorised ships], extremely helpful in getting to your destination as quickly as possible. However, the cool and exceptionally useful fact about the trades are that a ship can sail, say east, with the wind, and only has to travel a few hundred miles south to catch the westerly trades on the return trip.
In the northern hemisphere the winds are generally west to east, and in the southern hemisphere the winds are generally from east to west. This is true except for two relatively narrow ranges of degrees of latitude centred from about 5º to 10-15º north and south latitudes where the "trade winds" run in opposite directions than the prevailing winds for most of the remaining hemisphere in question. (The equator is 0º latitude.)
This allows a ship to sail more or less with the wind to its destination, then "only" travel a few hundred miles north or south, crossing the equator in the process, in order to pick up the trades moving in the opposite direction on the return trip.
(1º latitude due N or due S is about 69 miles, i.e. there are roughly 69 miles per degree latitude. This is easy to verify: The earth's circumference is close to 25,000 miles, which corresponds to 360º latitude. Hence, 25,000 mi/360º = 69.4 mi/º latitude.

February 01, 2018  
Blogger Unknown said...

ON THE OUTSIDE. I get a picture of a sailboat listing under full sail and a strong wind. Leaning over to one side. It makes sense as you say it's good wind and light seas.

March 17, 2018  
Blogger Unknown said...

On the outside is the technical term, when a boat has nothing between it (the land) and ocean. Basically meaning here they were running along a chain of islands. If you are on the outside, you are in open water not navigating between the mainland and islands. or in the case of the pacific, you are not navigating between the islands while running along the entire chain.

April 27, 2018  
Blogger Unknown said...

My challenge is the timeline in the song as far as where Avalon is. He got outta town for the Southern Islands. Then he talks of Marquesas lying ahead, and Papatee Bay being beyond that. I think Avalon is the last place to moor before a huge stretch of ocean...on Catalina Island off California.

August 13, 2018  
Blogger Unknown said...

I have never figured out why this is one of my favorite songs. I have very little musical talent or understanding. Perhaps those with a better understanding can explain, the change in cords seems so simple and yet they are unique to this song only. You can hear any part of the song and know immediately what the song is, and you can quote almost any part of the lyrics and everyone knows the song. Where those 3-4 guys just smarter than the rest of us?

December 19, 2019  
Blogger Unknown said...

This is one of my favorite songs also. The lyrics are so heartfelt and whenever I hear it, I can easily visualize myself on the boat headed to the "Southern Islands" and I can see the Southern Cross in my mind. I have also always wanted an explanation of the nautical terms used so I am very grateful for this post. Thank you!

December 30, 2019  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm thinking the trip starts in Avalon on Santa Catalina Island, CA. I think "southern islands" refers to French Polynesia. They're on a reach with the Marquesas off the wind on their heading, so they must be on a port tack with an east wind. I think the term "downhill run" refers to the straight shot to the south from Avalon to Tahiti and not to a point of sail (already said they're on a reach). The phrase "on the outside" may refer to their taking the outside route to Tahiti, rather than taking the inside route closer to Central America and South America. Just some thoughts from a fellow sailor. I too have thought about those lyrics for many years. Thanks for causing me dig a little deeper. Gary - garymarvinmoates@gmail.com.

April 21, 2020  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Enchanting. True art invites you in to learn and then share. Mission accomplished Mr. Stills. Brilliant songwriter, singer and musician (he played all the instrument's initially during recording sessions) He was the glue which held the group together, loosely.
Ha!

June 24, 2020  
Blogger Angel_Faces_Mom said...

I wonder if downhill run also means heading south and uphill run means heading north.

November 13, 2020  
Blogger God Loves You said...

Hello
Gary



I enjoyed your semi-anonymous entry on the meaning of csny's song about the southern cross.

Kevin O
Four zeeeroh ate fore sxx ohhhh 4 sevenin ohhhhh se7en


Humans will decipher thAt phone number but robots won't.

December 01, 2020  
Anonymous E. Stanley Murphy said...

Not many sailors on this thread. The sailing lyrics are not hard.

Avalon in the California Channel Islands, is a jumping off point for recreational sailors headed to the South Seas. It's one last chances to provision and head to a bar before heading to the "outside," which is to say, the open ocean, away from the protection of islands and bays.

The singer has cleared out of Catalina and is headed toward the trade winds, which in the Northern Pacific flow from the East Northeast to the West Southwest, creating what is known as the North Equatorial Current, flowing generally east to West.

The boat is on a broad reach with the wind coming over the starboard quarter (sails about 45 degrees at an angle to the centerline on the port side). The current from the East creates a following sea.

This is a safe, comfortable and fast point of sail. Life is very good for the lyricist.

The "downhill run refers to the winds running "downhill" (in the direction of the voyage) all the way to the Southern Islands (think Polynesia). When they cross the equator, the trades shift to the East and East Southeast, pushing the mariner all the way to paradise.

Just as the trades shift south of the equator, the navigational stars change and the Southern Cross (not visible in much of the Northern hemisphere) acts as a near polar guide to the South, just as Polaris leads North above the equator.

That constellation (it's called Crux) rises in prominence as a boat voyages West Southwest and becomes more and more visible as a boat dips below 25 degrees North latitude and approaches the equator.

This is one of the truest and most lovely sailing songs, as anyone who has made this voyage can attest. A lot of thinking takes place on Midnight watches.

March 07, 2021  
Blogger Unknown said...

It is about his French ex-wife, Veronique, with whom Stills has a son; the song is about a trip.he took post nasty divorce and custody battle.

March 09, 2021  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jimmy Buffett covers this song in concert.

Great version here: https://open.spotify.com/track/0qmawdRliiO39sdaxUIl2e?si=QIhi2F6qRNSpRcNVwDcecA

May 05, 2021  
Blogger Wind and Music said...

Just wanted to correct a few mistakes in your explanations, though mostly you have it right.

due to the reference to Avalon, which is a port on Catalina Island (as someone else pointed out), the "downhill run", which often does refer to tradewind sailing, probably simply means a southerly course from San Francisco. The "Southern Islands" referenced probably mean the Catalina/San Clemente/etc. islands of of Southern California.

There are actually more than 3 points of sail, but you're close enough :)

A following sea is one in which the waves are moving in the same direction as you are and, therefore, are "following" along behind your boat. This is one of the more comfortable sails since your speed and their speed are close to the same and it feels like the ocean is flattening out.

Often, when traveling south along the western coast, you can go "inside" (near to shore) or "outside" (further from shore). Advantage to being outside is that you are far less likely to get entangled in the lines that connect the marker floats on the top of the water with the crab traps sitting on the bottom. Thus, outside is less tense (though you are further from safe harbour). It is also, generally, less crowded with other boats on the outside.

The boom doesn't affect LOA. LOA is, the distance from the furthest aft portion of the boat to the furthest forward. The boom, generally, does not extend past the stern of the boat and, therefore, does not affect LOA.

-- Kevin, ASA Sailing instructor, Sailboat racing skipper and deiivery captain. --

March 02, 2022  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Steven stills is sailing the "coconut milk run" from the southern islands around fiji, the marquesas following the trade winds to California.

June 25, 2022  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Stills has said that "Rock and Roll Woman" is about Grace Slick.

July 11, 2022  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And music is her name. Perhaps this song is a reflection on his musical life and where it has taken him, how it has given and taken and left him and lifted him.

October 11, 2022  
Anonymous Deep Purple said...

Well dang! All these years I thought that "noisy bar" was in Avalon on Catalina Island, California, USA. But then I clicked the hyperlink and find out it was in . . . England?!

That rewrites my mental picture of the whole song . . .

January 25, 2023  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And music is her name" may be the name of the ship, but this figure is likely an extended metaphor. The ship he's sailing, with "all her flags a flyin,'" suggests that both she and the narrator are "bloodied but unbowed."

"She's all that [he] has left" refers to the ship, but also to that which is left to him at the end of his marriage (and at this point in his voyage, and in his life).

What remains to him is his "ship," (his life), the boundless ocean laid out before him (the means to continue the voyage of his life), and the one thing that he can place his faith in - his creativity, artistry, his passion.

And most importantly, his music. The hope that he must maintain, the force of his will to continue, and his path from this point forward. His polestar. And that is music.

And music is her name

February 28, 2023  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If he starts out on the US west coast and heads south, he has to be headed for Chili not Argentina unless he goes around the horn which doesn't make sense considering that he is headed for southern Pacific islands.

March 08, 2023  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If he starts out on the US west coast and heads south, he has to be headed for Chili not Argentina unless he goes around the horn which doesn't make sense considering that he is headed for southern Pacific islands.

March 08, 2023  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems to be a lot of wild assumptions and conclusions in the original post and related comments. First, the song was written by Stephen Stills, borrowing from a Curtis Brothers song, which another has referenced. David Crosby had not yet re-joined the band when the song was done/recorded, although he does sing when they play it on tour.

So many seem to take all the sailing terms as factual, which MIGHT be the case, but it could just be twisted a bit to make the song more palatable to the ear. I have not seen any definitive comments by Stills as to what it is about, other than it was after his divorce when he was on a long distance sail and he re-worked the Curtis Brothers song.

IF you follow the song logically, it is unlikely to refer to Avalon on Santa Catalina Island; that is a very short distance from the California coast and thus an unlikely stop so early in the trip to be calling an ex from a crowded bar. The "trip" many assume is the Coconut Milk Run, which could be true. Regardless, logic suggests if he is trying to reach the tradewinds on the way to Papeete he started in the North American coast (although could be Hawaii) to catch the trades which run from the NE toward the SW. Such a heading would send him south of the Marquesas Islands (another reason he probably started on the Coast and not Hawaii, as those islands are already West of Papeete). The Coconut Milk Run typically ends in either New Zealand or Australia, although I'm not aware of any firm "rules" regarding starting or ending points. There IS an Avalon just North of Wellington New Zealand, but it is slightly upriver from the bay. Australia has 2 Avalons, with one being in Victoria about 30 miles SW of Melbourne. Looking at the map it does not look to be a place sailors would hang out after crossing the Pacific. The other is Avalon Beach, which is just N of Sydney, and does look like a place one might relax after a long sail, with plenty of bars nearby to make a call to an ex after reminiscing during such a voyage. Logically, any of these 3 Avalons make more sense when you follow the way the locations are listed in the song (although writers will often mix facts up to achieve the rhyme they want). The downside to this interpretation is he then mentions he is later on a midnight watch, which implies more sailing. Which is of course possible with any of the Avalons, but again, could be taking literary license to craft the song.

So until Stills comes out with a more direct statement as to how he crafted the lyrics I think more caution must be used before reaching conclusions. It is a beautiful song and we should enjoy it as such as opposed to looking at it with too much precision regarding sailing or geographical descriptions.

October 11, 2023  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

See other comments that agree with your first theory

January 09, 2024  

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